Talk:Keldon class
Disorganized background info I removed or significantly altered the following: :In comparison between the Keldon-class warship and the Galor-class warship, the two main differences are: :*''The added fins located on the aft end of the hull :*''The large attachment located on the upper-middle section of the hull :''While we do not see enough of the Keldon in the series to tell what the large compartment on the upper-middle half is, some presume this to be an addition for carrying a division of troops for ground invasions. On the top of the large compartment is possibly an added disruptor cannon. The reason for the addition of the aft tail fins is also unknown, though they may also carry disruptor cannons for extra firepower and rear protection. :'Side notes:' :*''The Keldon-class ship was never shown in the regular Cardassian fleet throughout DS9. However, Gul Dukat mentions to Sisko when the is being chased that he has never before seen Keldon-class ships going at such speeds. Considering this is the first time it became known the Obsidian Order had a fleet, it can be presumed that Keldon-class ships were used in the rest of the Cardassian army.( ) :*''The Keldon-class ships shown in were equipped with cloaking devices provided by the Tal Shiar for the attack on the Founder's Homeworld. Although the Cardassian military also used Keldon-class ships, they did not possess cloaking devices as had the Obsidian Order's, as it was only Enabran Tain's personal fleet which received the upgrade.'' :*''It is mentioned that the was attacked by a Cardassian battle cruiser. It is unknown whether this is a reference to a Keldon-class ship or not.'' ( ) :*''During the Dominion War, there were several mentions to Cardassian destroyers. During Operation Return, Dax mentioned there were "Galor class destroyers". However, the various other references may be referring to Keldon-class destroyers. This is unknown however.'' ( ) :*''When the USS Honshu was destroyed by a wing of Cardassian destroyers, there is no mention to them as ships, leaving it open to interpretation what class of ship they were.'' ( ) Aside from the fact that the page was a horrible hodge podge disaster, the above stuck out the most significantly. Focused mostly on the "side notes" much of this is redundant of information presented in the main body of the article, and is presented here rather "un-encyclopedically." Overall there is a lot of supposition and "what ifs" that can better be explained with links. I did some significant weeding and condensing to get essentally the same point across in a more straight forward approach, and as well, cleaned the page up significantly.--Alan del Beccio 12:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Hodge podge, part II This page isn't intended to be a list of cliff notes, it is an article for an encyclopedia. First off, I removed the sidebar info, info found below. It is not supported by canon sources. *Type: Heavy cruiser *Length: 371.88 meters *Beam: 192.23 meters *Draft: 70.13 meters *Mass: 2,230,000 metric tons *Crew: 800+ *Maximum Speed: Warp 9.6 (observed) *Armaments: 2 heavy disruptor cannons; 12+ disruptor emitters *Defenses: Deflector shields Secondly, I am AGAIN removing the "side notes", as no one seemed to read, heed or respond to what I wrote above because they are too "wordy", and not necessarily directly supported by dialogue. Why include all this speculation? Do we really know the reason behind these "side notes", or are they conjure based on observations? Were their shields really ineffective or did that ship just take a beating for 10 minutes and was on it's last straw just as we viewed its destruction? Why do we need to analyse their "fighting capabilities"? We saw what they could do in , thats all that can and should really be said. Where was it ever mentioned they were "Destroyers"? ;Side Notes: :*''It should be noted that the quick destruction of the Keldon-class ships at the Battle of the Omarion Nebula was a result of the Dominion's phased polaron beam penetrating the ships' shields instantly. It was only after the United Federation of Planets studied these weapons that the Alpha Quadrant species' shields became effective against them. :*''Because the Keldon-class warship only appeared in two episodes, it is difficult to tell the fighting capabilities. Even in "The Die is Cast" there are few scenes of this vessel combating the Jem'Hadar attack ships. :*''The Keldon-class ship was never shown in the regular Cardassian fleet throughout DS9. However, Gul Dukat mentions to Sisko when the is being chased that he has never before seen Keldon-class ships going at such speeds. Considering this is the first time it became known the Obsidian Order had a fleet, it can be presumed that Keldon-class ships were used in the rest of the Cardassian Guard.'' ( ) :*''The Keldon-class ships shown in were equipped with cloaking devices provided by the Tal Shiar for the attack on the Founder's Homeworld. Although the Cardassian military also used Keldon-class ships, they did not possess cloaking devices as had the Obsidian Order's, as it was only Enabran Tain's personal fleet which received the upgrade.'' :*''During the Dominion War, there were several mentions to "Cardassian destroyers". During Operation Return, Dax mentioned there were "Galor class destroyers". However, the various other references may be refering to Keldon-class destroyers. This is unknown however.'' ( ) '' :*Another reference to Cardassian destroyers which may have been Keldon-class include the attack wing which destroyed the USS Honshu. ( ) As I stated before (which I suggest be re-read again)-- the "side notes" in much of this is redundant of information presented in the main body, as well as the background. --Alan del Beccio 01:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC) ::Given the fact that all ship pages have this sidebar and that, though the Keldon-class ship made limited appearances, there was some information about it revealed in the scenes it was in, there can be some of the side bar information kept there. It makes the page look better, and we can restrict the sidebar to containing canon information extracted from the appearances it made on DS9. I have taken the liberty of restricting the sidebar to general information which can be extrapolated from its appearances, as well as general logic in comparison to its counterpart, the ship (such as the crew size). I'd like to add that the reason I listed two disruptor cannons was because if you look closely when the Keldons fire on the , you'll see that the shots are coming from above the red disruptor emmiter used to shoot at the . Furthermore, as to the number of Keldon class ships in the joint fleet, I counted all of them seen when they are orbiting Deep Space 9. If you want to argue that there may have been more not shown on screen, my rebuttle is as followed: there were 20 ships in that combined fleet, it is likely that each side provided 10 ships. Next, I have added only one of the sidenotes back, just underneath the Keldon's primary information, as I felt it was worded fine and worth mentioning. - Thot Prad, 01:17, 9 October, 2006 (UTC) ::: I can't argue with wanting better aesthetics, but most all ships with sidebars also have relevant information to place in those sidebars to support their existance, hence why the one on the Constellation class page was removed. I can't argue that the Keldon doesn't have two particle beam cannons, but how do we know they are disruptor cannons? AFAIK, we don't. Crew size (which appears to be assumed based on the Galor class) and max speed (outside their mosey to the Founders homeworld at warp 6) was never specified in canon. Length is questionable as well, since they didn't look half the size of a warbird, as the sidebar states. Additionally, adding Dukats statement is still redundant. The Obsidian Order wasn't suppose to have ships. Period. Therefore, the Military is the only other candidate, as far as we know, that would have them. At least, that is what the dialogue states. Just because we have never seen one alongside a Galor doesn't mean they aren't commonplace behind the lines, or an older model, or a newer model. They simply weren't seen. --Alan del Beccio 23:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC) ::If you are going to harp on the Keldon class page for having used references to the Technical Manual, then you should do the same for all of the other ships listed in Memory Alpha, such as the , Constitution class, , etc. etc. Now, given the fact that the Technical Manual is not considered canon, I can understand why you would not wish to use it for information on this ship, or any others for that matter. However, that does not mean there are other aspects of the Keldon we can't extrapolate from the series. For example, you could place on the side bar "Warp Capabilities - 6+" given that moving at warp 6 was considered "slow" for the /D'deridex class fleet, and that they were upgraded by the Obsidian Order to move faster. As for the crew size, it is likely to be around the same, if not more, than the Galor class, given that the superframes are the same, with a simple addition to the top-middle hull for the Keldon. Moreover, looking closely at the shots of the Keldon class in the same episode, you can see windows on the additional part of the Keldon class, revealing there are spots for more crew in them. Furthermore, in the episode , both the Galor and Keldon classes are refered to as "cruisers" and "warships" numerous times in the episode, indicating they are similar in size and fighting capabilities. Another thing is that the original models for the Galor and Keldons built by the designers are the same length in scale So, you needn't a non-canon source to tell the size of the Keldon class given the fact is has the same superframe as the Galor, same designation of warship, and visuals show they are relatively the same size. Therefore, I think we can include in the sidebar the same size as the Galor class, and a crew size of 600+ as they have the additional compartment which has crew windows on it. Moving onto the weapons array, it could be either disruptors or phasers, given the fact the Cardassian ships were ordered to eject their phaser coils ( ), the Cardassian colonists modified their ships to use "Galor class phasers" ( ) and that the Groumall had phasers for its main weapon, while Cardassians also used disruptors on their outposts ( ). Given the fact that in all of the visuals which show the use of phasers have a distinct solid-beam look with yellowish colour, and that the Galor's used phasers (while the outposts used disruptors), it is more likely that the Keldon-class ships also used phasers. Furthermore, in the script for where the fleet opens fire, it says they use phasers as opposed to disruptors. Therefore, we should change the ship armaments to phasers as on screen visuals and dialogue support them being phasers. - Thot Prad, 18:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC) Keldon class names and registries This is one of the weird things you only find out by freeze framing. Pretty late in , a map with the locations of the and several ships appears on the viewscreen of the Defiant. Now, as seen in the episode, it just looks like triangles (the Keldon class ships) and a dot (the Defiant) with three rows of illegible text next to each of the location markers. When mirroring the image however (and I have no idea why the graphic originally appears mirror-inverted in the episode), one can make out parts of the text. Next to the Defiant (remember, it's the dot), it says :''USS Defiant :''Starfleet :''NX-74205 and next to the Keldons it says: :''XXXXXXX :''XXXXXXX :''Keldon Class Well, the most important things, the names and/or registries of the ships are barely/not legible, I found this an interesting bit nonetheless. --Jörg 18:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC) : It would appear they are all Keldon class....all 10 of them. --Alan del Beccio 21:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC) :: this cap is from a year and a half ago, have there been any new high(er)-res versions to get a better cap from? -- Captain MKB 21:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC) : Apparently not. --Alan 21:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC) I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind you placing that link -- the cap and that conversation are both from a year-and-a-half ago, which I was aware of before you answered. My question was, have there been any new DS9 releases since then that screencap geniuses may have access to, or are there any planned released of DS9 where a better cap could become available? -- Captain MKB 13:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC) : Because that's where this discussion is. --Alan del Beccio (talk) 15:57, June 14, 2017 (UTC) Forum:Cardassian ship question what is the big difference between a galor class and a Keldon class ? i read the pages here , but the only real difference is the crew size . is the keldon a heavy cruiser or what ?? since they are based off the same hulls what is the most likely reason the galor is more common ?? is the keldon newer ? : What you read on the Keldon class page, is what you get. The rest is left for speculation. --Alan del Beccio 07:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)